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Energy Saver Paper fair?


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#1 marke

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Posted 20 July 2002 - 05:53 AM

I would like to know if you think that our paper on Energy Savers is fair.



[Edited on 20/7/02 by marke]

#2 schow

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 04:17 AM

I assumed what you referred to "Energy Saver" are those equitment with capacitors inside either for household or "cap bank" for commercial used.

I basically agree with what you said, that correcting power factor would not slow down the kWhr meter BUT I still think that there are still saving because when you improve the pf of one machine, you can see current dropped (I have seen it before with a 2HP air-conditoner, where after we improved the pf from 0.86 to 0.98, the current drawn dropped from 12A to approx 10A).

As we know, dropping of drawn current does not mean that reduction on kWhr BUT when the current dropped, the losses in cables and switches also reduced accordingly, we all know that losses of these devices = I2R. Hence when I reduced, losses reduced too.

So, I think what these "energy saver" saved is not the current BUT losses. Please correct me if I am wrong.

#3 marke

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 02:37 AM

Hello schow

Welcome to the group.
No, the devices that I refer to are electronic devices that regulate the voltage applied to the motor in a manner to reduce the iron and copper los of the motor. These devices are based on the Nola algorithm or similar and have been the subject of many discussions and disputes for a number of years.
Best regards,

#4 schow

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 10:42 AM

Hi Marke,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am not quite familiar with the Nola algorithm you mentioned but I did came across a new "energy saver" product in the market, which I believe they added some capacitance into the network and corrected the power factor of the network.

This product become more and more popular in the market since they are very user friendly (you just need to plug it into any power point in your house) and they aim for household application.

I am not quite sure if this will work since we all know that correcting pf will not slow down the kWhr meter, but these companies do have some successful references, which the house electricity bill could be saved up to 20 to 30%!!!

I wondered as you said in the "energy saving" write-out, "Only wasted energy can be saved"!!! So could all these successful stories just a co-incidence, where the pf of those houses were very poor that they wasted a lot of energy??

Hope to hear your comment on this technology. By the way, is there any technology out there, which can really down the kW meter?? (Beside the Nola and what I mentioned above).

Thanks!!!!;d;

#5 marke

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 07:13 PM

Hello schow

No problem with the misunderstanding. That is what this forum is all about, - to help us all learn more and share our experiences.
The Nola system was liscenced by NASA in the late 1970s and was an electronic device designed for use on small single phase motors whereby the voltage applied to the motor was regulated by a triac according to the measured motor power factor. If the motor efficiency drops, the power factor also drops. As the voltage is reduced, the power factor and efficiency will increase again. This concept has been extrapolated and applied to motors of much higher efficiency, in applications where their efficiency does not drop significantly. Great claims are made, but result do not generally match expectations.
Power factor correction by applying capacitors will not reduce the KW consumed by motors and inductive loads, however it will reduce the losses in the cables supplying those devices. If there are long runs of cable between the meter and the motors, and the correction is applied at the motors, then there can be a reduction in KWHr. This will not be in the order of 20% however, maybe 1 - 2%. I would not expect to see any saving in the domestic situation either.

Best regards

#6 schow

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 02:39 PM

Hi Marke,

Thanks for the info. I came across a paper regarding the kWhr meter we used at home. This paper said the standard kWhr will only read current, which is in phase with the voltage and hence a low power factor circuit will give low reading to watt meter even if the current and voltage are loaded to maximum.

I am thinking that if we scrap the power factor of our house, says from 0.8 to 0.5, will it happen that the watt meter will run slower than normal even if now the current might be higher?? Pls comment.;p;

#7 marke

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 07:22 PM

Hello schow
The KWHr meter responds to the KW consumed. This is the product of the supply voltage and the inphase component of current. If you either add or reduce reactive current, you will affeact the power factor, but not the KWHr consumed by the load. You will alter the current flow, and therefore you will alter the losses in the supply.
For example, if we have a motor that draws 1KW at 230 volt with a power factor of 0.5, the meter will show 1KW used per hour, and an ammeter will show 8.7 amps If we correct this to a power factor of 1.0, then the KWHr meter will still show 1KW and an ammeter will show 4.34 Amps. - no saving in KW. If we consider the line losses, then the current is half, so the line losses will be one quarter. Your meter is down straem of the line losses so you do not pay for them unless you have a very line cable between your meter and load.
Best regards

#8 Guest__*

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Posted 31 October 2004 - 10:16 PM

Dear Empson Administrator,
I'm Numeriano Dolino of Philippines,Asia.I've been drawn more dedication of time to investigate about the savings when power factor is corrected basically 14% for every 100KW rating motor.And it is clearly understood that before the correction the losses due to iron and core loss were there.How about if no correction at all , can we still have the savings? Because obviously I stationed a point-to-point current and KW monitors and it has evident of reduction by comparison the previous reading and after installation of capacitors for motors. Two years today,I could have still hardly convinced my management the reality, because they contested the former stationed 13,200KVARS far from the load which in contrary I do have proof that capacitor in the field can do reduced KW after reducing IČR. Because in KW= working KW + IČR , thus after removing IČR pure working KW retains, then KW has been reduced . Please correct me as soon as possible , because I'm going for debate of this and suggest more to my management

#9 Guest__*

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 08:50 AM

;q

Hello! I would like to know why my meter turns faster after putting the capacitor (or power factor corrector)?

#10 marke

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 09:22 AM

Hello Numeriano
Adding power factor correction will not reduce the the losses in the motor. The current into the motor remains the same.
Power factopr corection reduces the current from the supply to the motor and will reduce the copper loss in the feeders only.
If there is a lot of line loss in the cable between the metering and the motor, then static power factor correction at each motor will reduce that copper loss, but if there is significant loss in the feeders between the motor and the metering, then that would suggest that too small a cable has been used and higher savings would be achieved by increasing the cable size.

Best regards,

#11 Guest__*

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Posted 26 December 2004 - 10:28 PM

For the solution, access: www.renaissance-pacific.net
They have the proven, tested, US Government certified, UL & CSA listed US manufactured technology IN circulation at this time in the entire Philippines.
RENAISSANCE PACIFIC CORPORATION
6060 North Central Expressway - Suite 560
Dallas, Texas 75206
Phone +1-214-800-3454
Fax +1-214-975-1839
E-Mail: hq.info@renaissance-pacific.net
In the Philippines, contact Engr. Ric Limpin at (0920) 907-1994
You might even want to be a dealer or distributor, the compensation is EXCELLENT!

#12 jraef

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Posted 08 January 2005 - 12:37 AM

Short comment....

Oh Brother!
"He's not dead, he's just pinin' for the fjords!"

#13 Guest__*

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Posted 12 January 2005 - 05:38 AM

how we can proof the saving of power correction with kwhmtr?
Or anybody can explain the different in Kwhmeter after and before the using pf corretor? Or there is no different. If there is no different why we can save up the the cost??Bcoz the bill based on the increasing digit in the KWh mtr.

#14 marke

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Posted 12 January 2005 - 10:25 AM

If you are saving power (KWHr) is will show on your KWHR meter. If you are not saving power, it will not show and you will not save money.
Power factor correction will reduce the current if you have a poor power factor, but will not slow down the KWHr meter unless you have very long undersized cables between your load and the meter, and the power factor correction is applied at the load.
Power factor correction will improve the power factor (if it is bad) and you will reduce the power factor penalty (KVA Max demand penalty) if you are paying one. If no penalty, no saving from power factor correction.

Best regards,

#15 Guest__*

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 03:01 AM

i have a neighbor who have a device that literaly stop his kwh meter. i inspected his service drop connection but there's nothing illegal connected before and on the meter. he said that an electrician who work in singapore air conditioning company made the device. the electrician also attended seminars on saving energy in japan. my neighbor paid P20,000 for a lifetime service.
do you have any idea of the device?;p;

#16 marke

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 06:22 AM

At the end of the day, if you are using the power, the meter should record it.

I saw a device that stopped/slowed the meter many years ago, it was a sliver of bamboo dragging on the disk. People who do such things get caught.

Another case I know of, the husband installed a switch to short out the meter and every day, he changed the switch over, then one day he died and the switch was in the shorted position. His wife knew nothing of this, but was investigated for such a low power bill. She had to pay back years of "free" electricity.

No, I do not know what the device would be, but if it makes the meter inacurate, I am sure it will be found out.
Best regards,

#17 jraef

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 06:57 PM

Marke,
Here is an interesting paper I found that lends some documentation as to what you have been saying about iron losses etc. Thoght you would like to see it.

http://turbolab.tamu...20/p20pg095.PDF
"He's not dead, he's just pinin' for the fjords!"

#18 marke

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Posted 04 August 2005 - 07:10 PM

Hi Jeff

That is a good looking paper covering a range of issues. Must keep a copy in my file!! Thank you for posting the link.

Best regards,

#19 hopsie2

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 02:39 PM

QUOTE (schow @ Jul 20 2003, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Marke,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am not quite familiar with the Nola algorithm you mentioned but I did came across a new "energy saver" product in the market, which I believe they added some capacitance into the network and corrected the power factor of the network.

This product become more and more popular in the market since they are very user friendly (you just need to plug it into any power point in your house) and they aim for household application.

I am not quite sure if this will work since we all know that correcting pf will not slow down the kWhr meter, but these companies do have some successful references, which the house electricity bill could be saved up to 20 to 30%!!!

I wondered as you said in the "energy saving" write-out, "Only wasted energy can be saved"!!! So could all these successful stories just a co-incidence, where the pf of those houses were very poor that they wasted a lot of energy??

Hope to hear your comment on this technology. By the way, is there any technology out there, which can really down the kW meter?? (Beside the Nola and what I mentioned above).

Thanks!!!!;d;



Schow,
Please can you tell me about this 'energy saver' in the market? How can I get it or where can I read about it?




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